TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Discussions in the vein that would most interest those looking for the "meat and potatoes" of Townsend Brown's scientific work.

Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby mark moody » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:19 pm

FB,
You are spot on about the energy storage & the capacitors.
My question is, can this be the gravy train? :D
That capacitor situation has been studied by the Brown, Bahnson & King team.
Their results are promising as long as one keeps an open mind.
Damn, I just say, this is true progress.
Even when one is on the outside looking in!
Mark
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:19 pm

fruitbat wrote:I knew if I just kept at it that SOMEONE would show up who actually has eyes brain and the "interest".
hahahahaha..... and yet Mark has been here all along. Sometimes things just have their own time frame.I am embarrased to say I haven't yet finshed watching the film! I'm hoping that is why I haven't seemed to notice all the things that you have indicated.
I'll finish it first before getting into it too much, but I do remember I was asked by someone to do the lifter tests and measurements with a dirty great big magnet inside the lifter...

When you mention "Energy storage was experimented with to try to eliminate the power supply attached to the designs" I must confess I had wondered whether replacing orville the mouse with 65 grammes worth of lightweight high voltage capacitor would do the trick as regards untethered flight, but had decided that it would most likely not result in a viable spacecraft due to the leakage that I see as a consequence of low weight, large capacity high voltage capacitor design. There are suggestions that the energy of lifting comes from the leakage of charge via the corona effect, In which case one needs a method of replenishing the charge difference. Ultimately it comes down to energy density against volume and weight of the PSU. I believe that new materials and geometry together with the ever improving batteries is what will provide one answer to self contained flight in a model "proof of concept" that is accessible by the likes of me.

More later when I've actually finshed watching the film...

FB.
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby mark moody » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:22 pm

Lady Linda,
Good morning!
I was multi-tasking.
Now it would appear that I am a grandfather to 4 and I am only 51!
WOW :D
I also was waiting to see if anyone else would care to chime in.
Mark
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:25 pm

As I see it guys.... there are obviously AT LEAST two things happening here. There is the Black World and yes... I think that the NRO and others truly do " own the night" as far as this technology goes.... But now its becoming time for others to start putting it all together themselves... in the light.... or at least... without government classifications. If the two of you are making progress I say YEA! GO FORTH! Some can not help you by sharing obviously classified information but enough has been left behind for a few renegades to see what is available to them.....and once the disinformation and misinformation operations drop to the side.....things will go forward.

Mark... sometimes its the Grandfathers that make the difference!

Linda
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby mark moody » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:32 pm

Just finished reading an old post by Andrew and Paul.
I had an idea about "that" radio.
It deals with sensors that Mr. brown was working on and had constructed.
I sure hope someone keeps this post.
FB, I hope me & you can meet one day.
That would be one helluva meeting!
Mark
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby fruitbat » Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:23 pm

Wow. I thought you were really quite the young man Mark. I had you as in our twenties!

Here's the deal, at least as far as I can determine. There is the lifter where the moving element is the metal lower plate and then there is the gravitor where as far as I can determine the prime mover is the dielectric. As the gravitor requires more fabrication and the results that I have seen and had reported to me are a magnitude away from my personal objective, (solo, and accompanied filghts across, and off planet) then I cincentrated my enegies on eth much maligned (it's a dead end) "lifter" as shown by J naudin. IT both levitates and carries a payload! All one has to do is make the payload capacity equal to the mass of the power supply and still have some spare carrying capacity and it's then simply a question of scaling it up to make a man carrying craft.

SO we have some base figures to work from, thanks to a bloke called Naudin, who is a hero of our times as far as I am concerned. HE did a shedload of work pushing back teh veil for (as far as I can determine) simply the joy of it. 25 KV, 80 watts input power, 240 standard lifter cells can lift 65 grammes.

I add my (currently unproven) assertion that I can generate 25KV for 20 minutes form an all up PSU weight of 650grammes.

SO. It looks perfectly possible that a self lifting lifter can be built (right now!) simply by scaling up Mr Naudin's design BUT there is a problem. You could only fly it inside a hangar or any other windless expanse, because it would be immensely fragile.

To solve this problem one needs to get more lift out of a smaller sturdier, but not heavier "airframe". To this end yours truly is currently testing and examining the electrostatic and other properties of various materials, (I'm quite liking things like mylar with electrodeposited metal coatings) and I am also inetrsted in how much more lift one can get from simply increasing the voltage, so I am currently slowly making my way towards building a much higher voltage lightweight power supply. I obtained a set of data about how much the "lift" available increased as I increased the voltge from 8KV to 15KV and it was a steepening curve, so unless there is a factor that I am not yet aware of, it suggests that by the time I get to 200KV it might yield a much more useful level of lift for the same mass in the airframe. The materials testing and voltage testing is simple, iterative, quite boring work but I suspect like edison with his incandescent lamp there is a lot of it to be done.
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby mark moody » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:29 pm

FB,
I WISH I was in my twenties!
I've been at this for a long time my friend.
But, as the old adage goes, good things come to those who wait.
The lifter is a dead end only because of the design and the delicate materials used for its construction as you have said.
A new design is needed.
One that is far removed from the lifter.
Yes, I too have followed Naudin accomplishments on the web.
Very impressive.
And yes there are some tasty morsels to be had there.
He has done some valuable leg work indeed.
But, the times are a changing my friend.
I believe to be able to increase the lifting capacity one needs more modern materials.
Dielectrics play their part.
But, this is not a,one part play my friend!
To be able to lift the total weight of the power supply and the device itself is going to require some true engineering.
Me personally, I like the road I discovered from the Bahnson video and the Bahnson notebooks.
While using a model turbine to prove the concept of the flame jet generator is a good idea,
that also is only one part of this 3 part play.
Self energy storage would eliminate a whole lot of weight.
This could be part 2 or 3 of this play.
I too see the use of rechargeable batteries.
I also see the use of high capacitance capacitors.
A device has been constructed that was able to stay afloat for a brief period of time even after the power supply was disconnected.
This is the path I choose to follow.
An energy pylon.
Follow me?
I'm sure you know where I'm heading with this.
Now, where do the RC servos come into play at for directional control?
Mark
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby fruitbat » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:03 pm

They don't.

Ecker asked me if I knew how to do this. I believe I do.

When we eventially crack the self lifting lifter, we build 3 or 4 of them, and strap 'em together on a frame using an APM or similar 50$ flight controller to vary the voltage on each "thruster". I learned from my experinces with model helicopters. Getting thust and then varying it's direction in a helicopter is currently done with a swash plate and a shed load of failure prone mechanical couplings, whereas a multiple engined variety can do it all by simply varying the thrust of each engine, which is far less of a challenge technically. I can conceive of a single point solution but I believe the implementation adds unneccesary complexity and unproductive weight when we already have enough challenge with the basic principles..

If by pylon you mean, build the lifter so as it takes it's power off a sliding coupling to a vertical pair of rods, and try and devise a scheme to reduce charge loss as the device moves though the air, then, yeah, we could make an impressive device but there's little opportunity to add steering, and the flights very likely will be unsatisfyingly short.

However, if we find a suitable lightweight stiff dielectric material that could be placed between wire and driving plate it occurs to me that we could exploit both the lifter and gravitor types of "electrically induced inertia" AND the dielectric could serve as the majority of the "airframe" thus providing a dual advantage. Maybe.

FB.
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby mark moody » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:17 pm

FB,
With all due respect, you really need to get past anything associated with the basic lifter design.
While Naudin did achieve directional control with the triangular lifter, and while some people did achieve an amazing feat by combining lifters into one big one,
this is not a step towards the future..
I understand the whole APM thing from looking at the current drone/ quad copter market.
But the future of a gravitor / lifter is not going to be even 1 meter.
Think bigger, outside the standard set box.
Why combine 3 lifters to do what 1 device can do?
The energy pylon I was referring to would be carried by the device.
Once the device is airborne, the anode & cathode contacts could be released by hand thereby permitting the device, along with its internal pylon, to remain aloft.
Granted, the charge would dissipate, but this too could be overcome by finding a more reliable dielectric material to assist in the overall construction of this high voltage rechargeable battery type pylon.
Directional control could easily be achieved by charge shifting around the outer perimeter.
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Re: TTBrown complete Lab Film Stan Deyo iPhone

Postby fruitbat » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:31 pm

This "charge shifting", may I ask, how it is it done?
FB.
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