Incoming

Discussions in the vein that would most interest those looking for the "meat and potatoes" of Townsend Brown's scientific work.

Incoming

Postby mark moody » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:28 pm

It would appear that the Bahnson, Brown team developed a device that was capable of vertical lift with the aid of a ducted fan motor.
Why?
Two thoughts come to mind.
First, this ducted fan was used to recycle the generated ions that would normally be generated for vertical lift.
Using this process, this device would be able to operate more efficiently when attempting vertical lift.
Second, once this device achieved vertical lift via the ducted fan, forward thrust would then be operated.
As stated in the Project Winterhahaven report, a device was being developed for both vertical & horizontal propulsion.
Doubt this not.
As stated elsewhere before, Mr. brown did not miss ANYTHING :D
Mark
User avatar
mark moody
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Incoming

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:19 pm

hi Mark, my goodness, it's been a long time.

forgive me though, I do not understand your post. where in the Bahnson papers is a "ducted fan" mentioned? perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying here?

Linda
Townsend Brown Family Consortium
March 2016
From the Shadow of Giant Rock
User avatar
Linda Brown
 
Posts: 15046
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Re: Incoming

Postby mark moody » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:04 am

Lady Linda,

This picture has been deciphered:
image.jpg
image.jpg (21.36 KiB) Viewed 473 times

That is a ducted fan in the center.

Mark
User avatar
mark moody
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Incoming

Postby fruitbat » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:16 pm

It might be if they had them back then.

EDF's are relatively new Mark, dependng as they do on powerful and tiny electric motors, which we didn't get until the eighties IIRC.
I'm not saying you are wrong Mark, but I am in all respect saying I don't think you are right on this occasion..

-And on a related note, for those who understand, sadly my super cheap pulse jet has not arrived and the seller is not responding..

FB.
Never gIve up. Never surrender. - Commander Peter Quincy Taggart NSEA "Protector"
User avatar
fruitbat
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:59 pm
Location: Central UK.

Re: Incoming

Postby mark moody » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:09 pm

FB,
While it is true that electric ducted fans were not available in those times, back in those days
need I remind you of the Bahnson family business?
Maybe my choice of words were wrong for those times, but nonetheless,
the device in the center IS a spinning turbine type motor, trust me.
In the Bahnson notes there is even mention of a fan of some type being used.
Never doubt the resourcefulness of money, need and determination my friend.
After all, who would believe you if you told people that back in those days that such flying devices were being built?
I'm willing to bet the farm on this one.
That device in the center of that saucer shaped device IS a spinning motor.
I just said ducted fan because that's what it reminds me of.
Mark
User avatar
mark moody
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Incoming

Postby Linda Brown » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:28 pm

This is going to be a fascinating discussion Mark. I am sorry that I am going to be a little quiet for awhile..on the road again most of today....Happy Easter to everyone, by the way. ENjoy the Day that God has made for us...as the saying goes!

linda
From the Shadow of Giant Rock
User avatar
Linda Brown
 
Posts: 15046
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Re: Incoming

Postby ecker2011 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:47 pm

Mark while it is plain to see in the photograph that it appears to be a turbine of some sort
you reference the notes for which you are the only one that has access to them. Why not share those notes so that
FB and others can see what you're talking about. If you're going to reference something then you should show that proof.

Jess
Townsend Brown Family Consortium
March 2016
User avatar
ecker2011
 
Posts: 2020
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: Incoming

Postby mark moody » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:56 pm

Esker,
I am not the only one to have access to such material that you ask for.
Like me, you too should now know that all asked for is not given but is released in due time.
A photo is worth a thousand words so they say.
So, let this comparison speak to the minds of those that will listen.
image.jpg
image.jpg (21.36 KiB) Viewed 441 times

Perhaps these 2 device have more in common than we know?
Mark
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (194.24 KiB) Viewed 441 times
User avatar
mark moody
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Incoming

Postby fruitbat » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:05 pm

Pity the first image isn't of the quality of the second...
We'd have a bit more of an idea of what we are looking at in the first pic then!
Never gIve up. Never surrender. - Commander Peter Quincy Taggart NSEA "Protector"
User avatar
fruitbat
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:59 pm
Location: Central UK.

Re: Incoming

Postby nate » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:23 am

mark moody wrote:It would appear that the Bahnson, Brown team developed a device that was capable of vertical lift with the aid of a ducted fan motor.
Why?
Two thoughts come to mind.
First, this ducted fan was used to recycle the generated ions that would normally be generated for vertical lift.


Hi Mark! This is an interesting comment as I was just reading the Bahnson 1960 patent (" Electrical Thrust Producing Device" - http://www.google.com/patents/US2958790 ) and indeed it does feature an electric motor (in the pod slung underneath the saucer). The patent states that the saucer - in fact two or three stacked saucers - should counterrotate to compensate for a natural induced spin.

The 1960 patent also describes a toroidal coil on the top of the saucer 'to shape the field', which I believe is what we can see in this picture! So that picture, to me, looks very close to the final patent design; so it wouldn't at all surprise me if it was able to rotate around that central axis.

Use of a fan to 'recycle the ions' is not something that appears in the patent (I think) but it's something that Stan Deyo hit on in his (presumably late 1960s?) personal saucer design and seemed to feel was important.

See, for example, pages 92-93 of 'The Cosmic Conspiracy' - http://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-conten ... piracy.pdf
To retain as much of the energy as possible when flying or hovering, it is necessary to keep part of the motion of the air with the vehicle.
This is done by using a centrifugal turbine fan which recycles part of the ambient medium... a manner of 'insulating' or containing the high-density energy source like the insulation in the hot air balloon).


Note also:

An effect that is the electrical equivalent of the "correolis effect" that make, water swirl one way going down a drain will cause the electrical field transfers of the craft to form a vortex as it moves from top to rim to area (e). Also, due to ionization potentials of the particular fluid in which the craft is travelling, there may be visible evidence of the swirling vortex. It will make the craft spin unless contra-torque is applied to hold the craft stable... This contra-torque issupplied by the returning ions on the underside of the craft. (There is, however, a great deal of contra-torque available in the secondary, energy storage mechanism of the air turbine in the practical craft)


and compare with the Bahnson 1960 patent:
The application of potentials to electrodes 12 and 18 induces a charge on the surfaces of canopy 24 which causes canopy 24 to tend to rotate in one direction and the reaction of these forces is a torque applied to electrode 18, causing electrode 13 to rotate in a direction opposite to that of canopy 24. The counter rotation of these arcuate members tends to stabilize the device and also to cause a greater thrust to be developed.


So I guess mechanically counter-rotating the Bahnson 'saucer' electrodes generated more lift - enough, one presumes, to more than offset the extra weight and complexity of adding an electric motor and slinging it underneath. And Deyo somehow spotted that too, even though his saucer design - though recognisably derived from the Adamski Scout Ship - seems to have gone through a somewhat different design path. Both seem to be 'reverse engineered' from the Adamski cross-section, but I'd put more money on Bahnson's as being correct since he actually built models (and had Townsend Brown). Deyo's one puts a ducted fan in the middle; Bahnson's has just a motor-driven shaft.

The two put the cabin in very different places (Bahnson's is the bulge on top, Deyo's puts it under the saucer section), but both end up with the classic Adamski doughnut-shaped cabin with a pole in the middle - every attempt to reverse engineer the Adamski saucer seems to agree on this! (Including Leonard Cramp). Perhaps because it featured prominently in 'Inside the Space Ships' and for some reason people in the 'saucer club' took this book very seriously? It doesn't quite seem like proper engineering to me, more like speculation, but what do I know?

Both the Bahnson and Deyo saucer descriptions also draw attention to a ball on the very top of the saucer as a 'field shaping' device, though in the Bahnson case the ball is also associated with the toroidal coil we see in the picture:
Toroidal coil 53 is located at the junction of the domed top and the top of the cabin for the purpose of shaping the field of the electrodes. When conducting member 49, which may be a coil, as shown, and coil 53 are charged to the potential of curved member 57, the resulting field aids the field radiating from the electrodes by acting as field shaping devices. By charging elements 49 and 53, the lift or thrust developed by the device is increased in the order of 20% to 30%.


vs Deyo:
The ball is vertically adjustable to change the effective voltage (charge distribution ratio) over the upper craft airspace and hence to change the field shape parameters.


So was Deyo just ripping off Bahnson, or did he arrive at this conclusion independently - or from accessing later designs derived from the Bahnson craft?

Very interesting!

Regards, Nate
But on inspection of the dust
I came upon this thing called 'trust'
It helps
us to adjust
User avatar
nate
 
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:03 am

Next

Return to Resolute

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron