What is thrust?

Discussions in the vein that would most interest those looking for the "meat and potatoes" of Townsend Brown's scientific work.

What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:15 pm

I believe that this subject needs its own thread and in it I hope to try to inform the reader as to the differences between what we call thrusts which are in our jet aircraft and rockets to what is actually occurring in the electrogravitic propulsion system. The definition of force is as follows:

The forward-directed force developed in a jet or rocket engine as a reaction to the high-velocity rearward ejection of exhaust gases.

This is demonstrated in the pictures that follow.

rktth1.gif
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thrust1.jpg
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vecthrst.gif
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As I have said many times newtons law which states: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is demonstrated in these pictures and this is what thrust really is. Ask for the simple aluminum foil and balsa wood and copper wire lifters that are commonly used to demonstrate electrogravitic’s propulsion this is not the case. People feel the breeze that comes off of these devices and assumes that this is thrust. The positive wire element and the negative aluminum foil element of these devices create a field around their particular element. The space between these two elements, the air in this case, is the dielectric. In my other thread which I deal with capacitors if you study what I have put their you will begin to understand this. There is a force that is being produced here but that force is not thrust. This is what Townsend Brown discovered. From the time with the early vacuum tubes with the elements inside one positive and one negative, when high voltage DC has applied to him there was a shift to the positive elements side. This movement has nothing to do with a reactionary thrust movement but in fact is gravitic in nature. There is a tendency by those of us who have a history of working on aircraft to think in this frame of thought but this is a completely different area of technology and we all must learn to set aside that way of thinking because this deserves a new way of seeing things and how it works.

Jess
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Re: What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:20 pm

Now that I have discussed what thrust is let’s look at what these lifters are actually doing. Take a good look at the following drawing and pay close attention to the fact that is saying propulsion force not thrust.

ekpprop.gif
ekpprop.gif (11.57 KiB) Viewed 749 times


This is a drawing looking at each element of a triangular-shaped lifter, edgewise. Notice the area that is indicated which says region of (+) and (-) ion current produces no net force. This is the area of dielectric for this capacitor. One of the biggest misconceptions by individuals is that they feel the breeze that comes off of these devices and immediately think of ion wind. This is absolutely incorrect because if you measure the wind coming from this it is not enough to cause the lift. As I have said before if you tether a triangular lifter device so that it is not moving all over but staying stationary in one place so that you can place your hand about an inch or so away from the side of it you will feel a wavelike effect. This is caused because of the pulsing of the DC current. Dr. Mason Rose described this as a gravity kick. This particular type of device has been tested in very high vacuum and the movement of it occurs even then proving that it is not ion wind. And the experiments that Townsend Brown did in France he found that you had to get above 150,000 V before the effect occurred. Much of the experiments that have been done even the one of it in very high vacuum which only went to a high of 17,000 V is extremely low voltage. To be able to achieve any form of heavy lifting you must get a very high K value for your dielectric, 50,000+ is needed to start to achieve any type of real lifting for this technology.

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Re: What is thrust?

Postby fruitbat » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:03 pm

BUT.

If you add a massive dielectric, that increases the opposition to movement, particularly in the vertical plane WRT the surface of the earth.
Surely this places severe boundaries on the size and disposition of the dielectric?

And I've always wondered why, since the airflow is generally downwards in a lifter and the air is the dielectric here the movement of any solid dielectric that we might add won't work against the natural movement of the lifter, which as we all know owes it's aggregate movement to the aluminium lower element trying to get closer to the top element.

FB.
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Re: What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:28 pm

fruitbat wrote:BUT.

If you add a massive dielectric, that increases the opposition to movement, particularly in the vertical plane WRT the surface of the earth.
Surely this places severe boundaries on the size and disposition of the dielectric?

And I've always wondered why, since the airflow is generally downwards in a lifter and the air is the dielectric here the movement of any solid dielectric that we might add won't work against the natural movement of the lifter, which as we all know owes it's aggregate movement to the aluminium lower element trying to get closer to the top element.

FB.


FB you are wrong in both counts! Remember these lifters are actually capacitors and how does a capacitor work? The dielectric in a capacitor dictates as to how much electricity is stored on the plates.
Depending upon the dielectric material and its K value dictates this. The higher the K the higher the amount of energy that can be stored on the capacitors plates. And in this instance the higher that energy level is
the stronger the force is. Also this concept of them thinking that it is the negative or tinfoil part of the lifter as being the one causing the left is actually wrong. These lifters work as one the whole part of it the positive and the negative plates work as a single unit. Everything that you have learned over your life has to be set aside think of it as being all his paperwork on your desk, take your hands and push all of that off of your desk and clear it.
This is an entirely new area of physics, the laws that we have such as the newtons law is not violated they just do not apply to this area of physics. New laws have to be created for this area of physics.

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Re: What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:02 pm

I do realize that so many out there are connecting this technology with the term thrust but if you continue to think of it in that way you will be misleading yourself. As I have said both of the elements the positive and the negative work as one unit. They are creating a gravity wave! The positive charge creates what’s called a gravity well and the negative creates what is called a gravity Hill. Thus forming this way. If you have been out to the coast they are and watched people surfing, they are writing their surfboards on the waves. This is exactly and I would say the best way to describe what this craft is doing. Even the simple triangular-shaped lifter is doing exactly the same thing. Do not think of things as up-and-down as relation to our perspective when we are looking at one but in this faction that the wave in this case would be going up in respect to our view of it.

Gravity Wave.gif
Gravity Wave.gif (4.89 KiB) Viewed 742 times


Shaping of the surface of a lifter gives better lift capability because more electricity or energy can be stored out on the plate and again that is with a higher K dielectric material. As you can see in this drawing the top view shows a domed shape compared to a flat shape on the lower one. Ask yourself which one can store more energy on it?

Works_6.gif
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In this drawing you’ll notice that it is a umbrella type lifter. Notice the shape of the dielectric material between the positive and the negative plates. What Townsend Brown discovered was when you shape the dielectric such as in this drawing the force is directed towards the larger end of the dielectric material. This has nothing to do with the polarity, it can be either positive or negative.

Works_7.gif
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You could also notice that the positive plate in this instance is much larger than the negative.

When I suggested to you FB to you think of using toggle switches the idea was to get you to think of how you can control the movement of the lifter. From side to side for one idea. Think about Townsend Brown’s disc-shaped test rig said he used in France. They consisted of a saucer shaped section with a wire element extended out in front of it. The saucer section was charged negative and the wire element was charged positive. This caused the test rig to move in one direction. Now if you added three more of these wire segments around the saucer shaped with each of them independent of each other you could control the direction of that test rig. By simply changing the polarity or in this case turning off the power to three of the segments. Just a thought!

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Re: What is thrust?

Postby fruitbat » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:49 pm

But I have seen a lifter constructed where instead of being a vertical sheet the lower element is a cylinder with it's inner side resting on a horizontal beam. First the cylinder moves and only when it reaches the stop (beam) does the entire apparatus move.

As in the case of "It doesn't work that way", in this matter currently, eyes beat words...

I'm loath to discard everything I have previously learned, that's just plain silly. I'm trying to add to the things I know that are are real not get dumber! :c)

And isn't it the size of the plates that determines the storage of charge? its certainly seemed connected to the value in picofarads when I used to take the metalised polyester ones apart. And if you make a couple of leyden jars out of similar jars the one with the biggest plates, it seems delivers the best discharge.

If we really can't agree on the basics, then I'm willing to do practical work that demonstrates what I have learned is irrelevant, but I'm not just taking your say so, any more than I'd take anyone else's, if it conflicts with observable reality.

Fruitbat.
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Re: What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:56 pm

I'm loath to discard everything I have previously learned, that's just plain silly. I'm trying to add to the things I know that are are real not get dumber! :c)


Sorry FB if you think that that is what I was saying. This is an entirely different way of thinking and I do believe you really need to study what a capacitor is.
Once you have achieved that you may have a much better understanding of what is happening here. If you can't at least look at what I am saying then you are going to have continued problems.
I have seen a lot of this type of thinking by others and I see them running into dead ends. I have actually gone way beyond that of the simple lifters or of anything similar to this.
I am working on a project that hopefully I will have completed in about a year from now. Then you can see what I really do know and hopefully you can have an open mind as to what it is really doing.
Just because others are saying things or it is doing something does not always mean it's correct. They can also be misinterpreting what it is that you're seeing. Good luck to you in your research!

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Re: What is thrust?

Postby fruitbat » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:17 pm

"I have actually gone way beyond that of the simple lifters or of anything similar to this".

Might I ask, is that in theory or practice?
If it is practice, can I ask how much force you have obtained so far?
Have you beaten the world record of 60 grammes lifted (that's roughly 2/3 of a newton I think.) ?

I hope you don't mind the questions, Jess, but before I follow someone I like to know a bit about where they are leading me.
Also, your answers of course will help me to be a bit more selective with the required "unlearning" of previous knowledge.

Perhaps I'm being a bit pushy, but you've not yet told me anything I haven't previously encountered, nor have you provided any new way to process the data, yet, unlike most legitimate teachers I have encountered you are discounting facts which I have previously encountered.

Such as the foil tube experiment. As you are the authority here, may I ask if you have seen the experiment that I refer to? it definitely implicates the mass of aluminium foil as being the prime mover...

Cheers, Steve C.
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Re: What is thrust?

Postby ecker2011 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:50 pm

fruitbat wrote:"I have actually gone way beyond that of the simple lifters or of anything similar to this".

Might I ask, is that in theory or practice?
If it is practice, can I ask how much force you have obtained so far?
Have you beaten the world record of 60 grammes lifted (that's roughly 2/3 of a newton I think.) ?

Yes Steve I have but my results are still classified as far as anyone is concerned I do not advertise!

I hope you don't mind the questions, Jess, but before I follow someone I like to know a bit about where they are leading me.
Also, your answers of course will help me to be a bit more selective with the required "unlearning" of previous knowledge.

Much of what I do know is still highly classified and stems from the period of time for what I was doing something in 1971.
This is not of my doing to classify it but it is something that I am not allowed to talk about. I do realize you think that everyone is supposed to tell and never keep anything secret from anyone.
But nondisclosure statements are real and just because you don't feel you need to sign one is your prerogative. But I respect mine!


Perhaps I'm being a bit pushy, but you've not yet told me anything I haven't previously encountered, nor have you provided any new way to process the data, yet, unlike most legitimate teachers I have encountered you are discounting facts which I have previously encountered.

I have given you clues it is up to you now if you wish to want to follow these clues and investigate them.
That is all I can do again it is up to you. Also remember that your eyes can deceive you especially if you don't truly understand what it is that you're looking at.

Such as the foil tube experiment. As you are the authority here, may I ask if you have seen the experiment that I refer to? it definitely implicates the mass of aluminium foil as being the prime mover...

I have seen that particular experiment at all it is doing is stabilizing the triangular lifter.

Cheers, Steve C.


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Re: What is thrust?

Postby fruitbat » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:36 pm

Thank you for taking the time to answer that Jess.

I'll see if I can pick up on the clues.

Cheers, Steve C.
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